If this is considered "evidence" for human shielding in those NATO reports (weapons hidden behind an MRI machine really), then yes of course I will not consider that credible by any means:



I mean even if that were true, even if what they show was really a "HQ" for Hamas, does that make it legitimate for Israel to bomb hospitals?
And then those "unprejudiced" people come and say it's Hamas' fault?

Edit: it was not a HQ but a "command node" and a "base of operations" according to the Americans who were so sure of their information and all. And obviously let's, as usual, throw in "the right to defend itself" and "human shields" and of course "it is the fault of Hamas" just to assure Israel that they can go on and keep bombing hospitals because Hamas bad.

Belial, don't get offended, but my guess is that your day job doesn't include a great amount of logical thinking because you fail with logics again and again.
The "moment of explosion at al-Shifa Hospital" video you posted is a 100% proof that it was indeed a failed rocket launched from inside Gaza, the IAF doesn't have this type of ammo in their planes...it's clearly the type of rockets that Hamas fires directly at Israeli citizens plus I've already posted this video earlier that you keep ignoring but srsly at this moment I don't expect much of you.

Israel is a violent ethnostate

The Israeli terror state continues to lie in regards to the war, hospital attacks, etc. There was no "Hamas HQ" within the al-Shifa hospital. The United States supports Israel's claims. Why doesn't the US let Israel annex it? I'm quite sick of the one-sided, selected two party system. The Zionist lobby makes every single decision of these bought puppets.

I'm not getting offended by the words of someone who doesn't understand basic international law concepts.
You may be too young to discuss these things, but that's not offending, it's just sad.

Oh trust me I'm familiar with basic international law concepts, the problem is that you refuse to accept reality and accuse Israel of crimes it didn't commit (i.e the failed rocket launched from inside Gaza which you constantly attributes to Israel) and try to make the genocide that Hamas did on 7th October looks somewhat insignificant.

As I've said earlier, what Israel is doing against Hamas in Gaza (the modern days Nazis), is almost nonexistent compared to what the allies did when they combated the old Nazis and that's the price of war that the people of Gaza pay because of Hamas.

Two clearly inadequate (and diseased) algorithm feeds are being revealed here. I said earlier that the Palestinians are screwed (their governing body doesn't value them, nor can Israel), but what I should have said was that we're all fucked in the head.

as not an aside, this Bin Laden's "Letter to America" tiktok thing is further evidence of fucked social media consequence.

This is reassuring, but even if the majority of American do not support Israel really doesn't matter. AIPAC decides. I recently saw somewhere that AIPAC is trying to oust the few anti-Israel politicians. If that's the case, the First Amendment is being overridden. The United States needs to free itself from these nefarious gangsters.

Support For Israel Drops As 68% Of Americans Want Ceasefire, Negotiations

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/support-israel-drops-68-americans-want-ceasefire-negotiations

Biden’s Support For Israel Comes At A Huge Cost To Americans

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/11/15/conflicts-of-interest-bidens-support-for-israel-comes-at-a-huge-cost-to-americans/

So the IDF spokesperson missed his daily news conference the other day to assist CNN in filming this.
I guess this constitutes evidence for human shielding and "beaheading babies" and "holding people at gunpoint" for "unprejudiced" people who are also the self-appointed champions of logic.



I was actually quite surprised the CNN journalist was asking serious questions and wasn't there just to confirm whatever bullshit that Daniel creature would keep spurting.


No I won't trust you as you're still repeating that tired "beheading babies" bullshit. You're also repeating that "Hamas prevents them from leaving at gunpoint" argument just because it sounds cool or something, I don't know.
And no you clearly have absolutely no understanding of basic international law. You make up your own definitions of "genocide" just to apply it randomly on one single attack, while refuting what actual experts on the matter keep saying: Israel IS committing genocide right now.
And you keep only blaming Hamas for everything as means to say "Israel has no other choice" basically.
But hey, you're just an "unprejudiced" person after all.

Bin Laden is totally irrelevant. The Zionist media is attempting to shape public opinion in regards to 9/11.

Fox News told the truth one time. There was a report by Carl Cameron talking about Israelis spying on Americans and that Israel knew very well about the attack.

Israel steals American technology and are milking us dry of our resources. It's that plain and simple.

This is gold:

Belial, samapaco, and FINO ALLA MORTE....

I know emotions are running on overdrive, and it seems at least two of you have some personal stakes in the Gaza matters, but please keep in mind that:
1) This thread is meant for discussion on US politics, not the everlasting Middle East crises. Yes, there is a connection, but it's not, and should not become, the main subject of discussion here.
2) We tend to prefer a cool-headed discussion, not bickering that leads nowhere.
3) Posting links to a conspiracy theorist websites is NOT a good idea. This goes specifically to FINO ALLA MORTE, don't do it. There are better places to spread that bullshit. Go there and smear it on yourself as much as you wish, but don't bring that here, please. I will remove you from the premises if you keep it up.

I think we would all welcome a civilized discussion on the Middle East situation, but the two of you seem to be on the path towards a serious confrontation, and I suggest keeping your heads cool. It is a generally accepted fact that the Gaza stuff has very few objectively Good Guys [tm] at the moment, and the innocent are suffering on both sides, even if in unequal numbers. Picking a fight here serves no purpose.

So please cool down, keep the insults to a minimum, and try not to increase the tension between the two of you. I will personally see to it that this thread will not turn into a virtual Gaza Strip. And that, unfortunately, usually takes place through removal of posting privileges.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... lls-israel

While I don't want to have this thread discuss too much about the situation in Gaza so as not to derail the thread, I would like to ask Americans here who still think Biden is "the lesser evil" why would they vote for him, as right now he is directly responsible for Israeli war crimes with this latest move. Personally, as an American I would invest all of my energy into campaigning for a third candidate. Or do politics outside of electoralism. Why the simultaenous pessimism when it comes to alternatives and the optimism that Biden is anything but a "reluctant Republican" (like most of the Democratic Party)?

One, he is absolutely not 'directly' responsible for Israeli war crimes. That's not what 'directly responsible' means.

Two, I, and many others, are not single-issue voters. I don't particularly like Biden's approach to the conflict in Gaza, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend the major accomplishments he's been able to achieve despite witheringly bad political circumstances didn't happen.

And it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to pretend for a minute that a Republican would do any better. Are you kidding me? Republicans are out here talking about deporting Palestinian-Americans and banning any semblance of pro-Palestinian speech. I'm not usually one for 'Dems are the lesser evil' nonsense, but in this case, where I do disagree with Biden's policy, it absolutely is the 'lesser evil' by a mile.


Name me a single third party candidate who aligns with your values and has even a 0.01% chance of actually winning and I'll say that's a good investment of your energy. Otherwise all it accomplishes is helping to elect Donald Trump, who will then try to deport Palestinians, or throw them into a concentration camp, and then probably urge Israel to nuke Gaza or something for good measure. But at least you didn't just vote for the lesser of two evils!


How different does Biden have to be for him to stop being a 'reluctant Republican'? I really do think to a lot of folks on the left literally the only two options are 'shares my views on pretty much everything' and 'varying shades of Republican.' That's not how the real world works.

Can we stop this already? Did we not learn our lesson when this same kind of thinking was applied to Hillary Clinton and it led to a conservative stranglehold on the Supreme Court that will likely not be broken for decades to come? Is it going to take nothing short of Republicans imposing the death penalty for abortion, making it illegal to vote for non-Republicans, and sending all immigrants to labor camps before some people on the left concede that the Democrats are, in fact, different from Republicans?

Ezadara said it well.

My impression as a voter is that for anything the Democrats handle badly, or are seriously wrong about, it's extremely unlikely that the Republicans would handle it any less badly, or be any less seriously wrong - and there's at least a non-negligible chance (if not considerable probability!) that they'd be substantially worse. It is beyond my ability to think of any plausible exceptions. Maybe there are some, but I don't know what they are.

Sometimes the Democrats do (or at least say) things one can feel good about - or at least relieved about, as when people come around to the long-overdue acknowledgement that LGBT people are entitled to equal protection and recognition under the law; that the US health-care and education systems are needlessly exclusionary compared with other countries', and our gun policies irresponsibly lax; that wealth and poverty aren't always or even generally a reflection of one's work ethic; that the scientific consensus on climate change should be taken very seriously; etc.

What are the upsides of having Republicans in charge? Maybe trivially lower taxes...?

Again with the "but Republicans are worse" argument! It's borderline abusive!



But Biden is essentially allowing this last thing to happen, only without nukes! What's the difference, other than Trump being openly unashamed of such a notion? It is so transparent that as long as he can project an image of humanity and charity to marginalized citizens in the US he is getting away with allowing, if not *contributing* to Israeli war crimes! And this hogwash about feeling relieved about pro-LGBTQ rhetoric, pro-climate action rhetoric, etc. simply doesn't correlate what your politicians actually do, actionwise. Watch whatbthey do, not what they say. I'm not saying there are no good Democrat politicians, but you have to look at how the American political environment tolerates their existence by making them weak and demonized by news media. That environment is something that can only be challenged outside the political establishment.

I think going by the sheer number of civil population in the US turning out for pro-Palestine protests, there is actually a chance for a third party candidate to grow in popularity. The only thing stopping that from happening is this learned helplessness in American political culture. Why aren't you canvassing for people who represent your values more closely, and probably don't want to help genocidal states kill people? "It will never happen". Says who? The part of you that's unwilling to be more active?

Basically the only thing that the Democrats have going for them, now more than ever, is "we're not the Republicans". Yeah, Trump will probably be worse than Biden. I'm not suggesting you don't vote and do nothing else like a petulant child. I'm saying that you shouldn't tolerate this demoralization and look for alternatives, really get into them. You guys have a very charismatic guy called Cornel West, I'd be investing my energy in him, if I were you. Even though he doesn't share literally every opinion I have. Maybe it's time to throw a tantrum at the American government!

FWIW, I don’t believe the Democratic platform is all empty rhetoric. There have been actual, positive accomplishments. For example, same-sex couples didn’t always have the right to marry. The Affordable Care Act saved lives. Neither of these represented a total “mission accomplished” moment, but they were still significant, and when Trump took office, there was justifiable fear that both of these accomplishments would be undone. (And Roe, of course, actually was overturned. Etc.)

This isn’t a comprehensive list, only a small but representative sample, IMO. But I think the trends and their significance are obvious.

It’d be a good thing for the government to move quite a bit further to the left, I agree, but in the meantime, it’s also essential not to empower the extreme right. (And “extreme right” is an increasingly redundant expression here.)

The most sensible voting policy, IMO, is a combination of (1) “left of the Republicans AND capable of winning” in the Presidential, and (2) “leftmost AND capable of winning” everywhere else, including in the Presidential primaries. In effect, (1) simply means voting Democratic in the Presidential. I see it as the least objectionable choice in the circumstances. Any other would be to the benefit of the Republicans.

(Hopefully this isn’t too garbled, typing on my phone…)

I don't know why people on the left seem to think 'Democrats are better/Republicans are worse' is a bad or unconvincing way to argue that... Democrats are better and Republicans are worse.


What's the difference? Well, for a start, remember the humanitarian pauses the Biden administration negotiated, the ones that got millions of direly needed dollars in aid for Palestinians in Gaza over vociferous Republican criticism at home? Yeah, that's not happening under a Trump administration, which would not only be sending more weapons to Israel-- without the slightest whisper about tethering that aid to commitments from Israel-- but would also be at a bare minimum blocking any Palestinian refugees from coming to the US, and probably trying to deport Palestinian refugees who are already here.

Yeah, no difference.


The idea that lots of people turning out for pro-Palestine protests signals any electoral viability for a third party candidate reflects, I'm sorry, a catastrophic lack of comprehension about the reality of American politics. It is divorced from reality. Most Americans do not consider the war in Gaza a major American political issue in terms of their presidential voting. They care more about the economy, about abortion rights, healthcare, gun violence, immigration-- the idea that a substantial voting bloc of Americans are going to be animated by this issue alone is not real.

And when Americans are polled on Biden's handling of the crisis, the vast majority of those with an opinion say Biden is either striking a good balance between Israel and Palestine, or failing to favor Israel enough. The percentage of Americans who think Biden should be doing more for Palestine is vanishingly small, and I think that's awful. I do think we're at an inflection point where willingness to stand up for Palestinian rights and sovereignty is finally seeping into the American political mainstream, and I'm glad to see it and I hope I can do something to speed that process up, but it's just completely not serious to say that the number of people turning out for pro-Palestine protests means anything for third-party candidates.


lol, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be told I'm lazy because I refuse to facilitate a second Trump term and the possibly irreversible destruction of American democracy by working my ass off for a third party candidate with absolutely zero chance of getting elected. I work very damn hard on behalf of candidates and causes I believe in. I've been pretty active in my local political sphere pushing for resolutions calling for support for Palestinians and for a ceasefire. I'm not 'unwilling to be more active.' I just have basic common sense.


No, he will not 'probably be worse', he will be much much worse, full stop. These milquetoast declamations of 'sure, he'll probably be worse, but...' are silly. He will 100% be worse.


Cornel West will never, ever be president. He will not even get close. He will not win a single electoral vote unless some faithless elector decides to toss him one. No, I am not going to waste my time trying to get Cornel West elected. If I wanted to do anything involving Cornel West, it would be to follow him around with a bullhorn and demand he get out of the race because now is not the time for him to peel a few thousand votes away from Biden in key swing states for the sake of his principles. The stakes are too high and if he doesn't realize that then he doesn't have the barest modicum of political acumen necessary to be president anyway.

That's just reality. It ain't happening. And this is not a 'well, if more people were willing to challenge the status quo'-- no, it's not happening. Whether you like it or not, you vote for the Democrat or you vote for the Republican, or you for all intents and purposes don't vote at all. And by the way, the exceptions to that-- the few times in the last, like, century that a third party candidate did have any real electoral prospects-- they were people like Ross Perot, George Wallace, and Strom Thurmond. Not exactly left-wing luminaries.

Because you can't force humans into gratitude just like that.



I'm sorry, but this isn't even remotely humane. The US literally just vetoed a UN resolution to call for another ceasefire due to the increasingly worse humanitarian situation a few days ago. That's it, there's no 4D chess political maneuvering you can realls justify or distract from the issue at hand with "think of how worse it could be". It is a borderline endorsement of genocide.



Fair enough, but for a significant number of people in civil society around the world, I can tell you it's a mask off moment for America's political legitimacy when it comes to supporting human rights. I believe the situation will become more intense as the US takes more drastic measures to secure itself as the world's superpower in the face of climate change, resultant mass immigration, economic instability and geopolitical conflicts. Voters will have to come to terms with the backlash that US-led imperialism will bring back home, and that includes increasing discontent with Israel/Palestine as an important trigger, especially from marginalized groups.


That's great you've been pushing for resolutions calling for Palestinian support and ceasefire. But if you think that the idea of a third party candidate having a chance is so immeasurably hopeless, why do you insist that the only political action possible is either voting or not voting?



I think the stakes are much too high already for Biden to deserve Americans' votes. This is actually the perfect political moment for people to get their act together and proclaim "this is not OK" at the Dems. What is going on right now isn't some small minority of radical leftists getting all moralistic over some plot of land in a far off Middle Eastern country. It is a situation that is drawing condemnation of the DNC from a wide spectrum of self-described liberals and leftists from all over the world. Yes, not voting Biden will probably help Trump and hurt you a lot. Trump is the worst, no doubt about it. But I'm not sure whether you can save yourselves at the expense of the world, which is suffering right now and only getting worse. I don't think it's really possible, because the rest of the world is what your country relies on for raw materials, political influence and profits. If you are genuine about following West with a bullhorn telling him to get out of the race, I see no reason to for people to think you are not another mouthpiece for Biden and Israel, regardless of how much you claim to support Palestine. There HAS to be an alternative, or a lot of things perish.

You have horror unfolding right now in Gaza with the blessing of the president of the US. The fact that you realistically have a choice to vote between either Biden or Trump should drive you crazy, not scramble for half-baked reasons to justify the status quo that is clearly becoming increasingly dire. THAT's the reality that needs to be accepted.

But it's true. Republicans are worse than Democrats on almost any level if you're anywhere close to the center or to the left. They are far-right fascists right now, and especially on the particular issue of Israel.

Anyone who votes for a third party or stays home is essentially voting for Trump and, I'm not exaggerating, the rise of fascism in the US. We've had this conversation before. And lo and behold, we were right, as Trump incited a violent insurrection and the GOP is installing people who are more likely to do Trump's bidding than last time (i.e. cheating at the elector level, denying or outright deciding the results of the elections, refusing to certify results, etc.), and democracy in the States is in real, actual danger.

Democrats suck on Israel, but the Republicans suck a whole lot more. You seem to realize it, but aren't willing to admit it.

As for your last comment... the status quo is gone. There is a party of Christo-fascists and racists, and one that simply isn't. There is one party that has become slightly more progressive over the years, and one that has taken a dark turn towards pure evil. Your choice is extremely simple. It's one of the simplest choices you'll face in your life.

I don't hear anybody justifying the status quo. The face that I realistically have to choose between the two *does* drive me crazy. I hate it. I hate that I'll never have the chance to vote for anybody left-of-center in a Presidential general election. The closest we've had is Bernie Sanders, and I gleefully voted for him in the 2016 and 2020 primary elections, but had to suck it up and vote for the lesser-of-two-evils in the general election, because I live in a nation filled with diversity of thought along with a massive, well-funded right-wing leaning media apparatus that will never stop working to distract the common folk so the rich can continue to accrue wealth at their expense.

In 2024, I will again vote for the "lesser of two evils". This time, I have the power of foresight on my side, as I've already experienced an administration run by the bigger evil. That bigger evil moved the US Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. That bigger evil spent his first year fighting to ban all Muslims (read: "brown" people in general) from entering the nation. That bigger evil filled his Cabinet with leeches to destroy our nation. Voting for Biden to keep that all from happening again is the undesirable choice we have to make until the American people pull their heads out of their ass long enough to ditch the right-wing bullshit once and for all.

This is not about gratitude, just a simple recognition of reality. If you are not right of center-- heck, if you're not significantly right of center-- then the Democratic Party probably aligns much better with your values, interests, and policies than the Republican Party-- ie, the Democrats are better, the Republicans are worse.


Yeah, I agree, I don't like how the US is handling this crisis. But we don't have the luxury of not thinking of how worse it could be, because worse is the alternative. Even if you accept the premise that Democrats are bad and Republicans are worse-- and I don't agree with that, even on this issue where I think the Biden administration isn't doing the right thing-- then you should vote against worse.


I don't insist that. You can also canvass for Democrats, phonebank for Democrats, organize for Democrats, support Democrats in primaries who align best with your values. The wholesale reshaping of American party politics will take generations and generations, and what you're talking about is a fundamental reshaping-- US politics has effectively been binary for at least the last 170 years, in some sense it has been since the very start. And right now, the idea of a third party candidate having a chance is indeed immeasurably hopeless.


I'm not following your logic here. 'Saving ourselves at the expense of the world' implies the alternative isn't also much much worse for the rest of the world, too. Every country has to deal with its internal political realities. It's unfortunate the US has all too often not used its global influence and authority responsibly, but there are two realistic options and there is no doubt as to which is the more responsible, domestically and abroad.


I guess I don't particularly mind being seen as a 'mouthpiece' for Biden. I mean, I support him, sure. Anyone who thinks I'm a 'mouthpiece of Israel' for not helping facilitate Trump's reelection despite being unequivocally in favor of Palestinian rights and sovereignty is not someone whose opinion I particularly care about.

STOP THE SLAUGHTER IN PALESTINE - by Eric S. Margolis


December 8, 2023



Palestinians have become sand in the eyes of the Mideast. How did this happen? From where did they come?

Nowhere, according to the late Israeli prime minister Golda Meir. She insisted Palestinians did not exist and were merely human flotsam and jetsam. That was pretty rich coming from Golda Mabovich, born to a Jewish family in Kiev, Russia.

So where did the Palestinians come from who are now under terrifying siege by Israeli forces in and around Gaza, with 15,000 killed so far by Israeli bombing, half of them children? These Palestinians came from next door Galilee in Palestine. They are third generation refugees.

In the early 1950’s, my mother, a journalist and lecturer, went to Palestine sponsored by a number of US newspapers and, secretly, by the US State Department.

Newly founded Israel’s official position was that Palestine – and particularly the fertile Galilee region – was a ‘land without people for a people without land (meaning Jewish immigrants).’

My mother discovered hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees living in huts made from tin cans or cardboard boxes. There were some tents erected by foreign aid agencies and the United Nations. The refugees were huddled together in the biting cold. Many were near starvation.

There was only a handful of doctors or medical personnel, and no hospitals. Jewish settlers from Eastern Europe were moving in and seizing all the arable land. The United States was financing these settlers. Donations to Israel in the US were, mostly, tax deductible. The propaganda book ‘Exodus’ and subsequent film paved the way for the seizure of Palestinian land.

Those who opposed the Zionist agenda were viciously attacked. The newspapers for whom my mother wrote were cowed into silence. Newspapers were threatened with boycotts by their vital advertisers if they did not eliminate my mother’s writings and lectures on Palestine.

Worse, pro-Israel supporters began banging on our front door in New York City, screaming death threats that included throwing acid into my mother’s face and mine. The war was not long over then and emotions after the Holocaust were still raw.

My mother was eventually terrified into silence because of threats of me being blinded by acid. She was forced to give up exposing the miserable fate of Palestinians. Meanwhile, Jews and non-Jews from Eastern Europe continued to pour into Palestine and expropriate Arab owned land. Usually with help from the Israeli government or American Zionist organizations.

When Israel’s new hard right government coalition came to power this year, one of its first acts was to proclaim it would continue ethnic cleansing in Galilee and further expand settlements on the border with Gaza. Israel’s newly impowered hard right – a group that the late great Israeli columnist Uri Avnery termed ‘Jewish fascists’ – also had its eye on Gaza and its 2 million Arab inhabitants, who were the victims of the very kind of ethnic cleansing the US rightly condemned in Kosovo and Serbia. That’s what lit the fuse for attacks near Gaza by Hamas – ironically whose founding was abetted and financed by Israel to split the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) led by the late Yasser Arafat, who was later likely murdered by Israeli poison experts from Russia.

Israel’s far right has secured almost total control of the Biden administration, including the president and secretary of state. Congress jumped to its feet to applaud Netanyahu while cold-shouldering President Obama. Those tax-deductible US donations and over $5.5 billion annual overt and covert aid to Israel (before Ukraine became the leading recipient of American money), plus similarly generated aid to Ukraine make the capture of US foreign policy possible. The few media critics who protest this kidnapping of US policy and funds are ignored, sidelined or blacklisted.

For a shocking example, I was just ‘bought off’ a major TV public news network for a payment of $2 million.

Americans who rely for news on the big six news outfits get data prepared for them by Israel’s mighty propaganda machines. That’s why the Mideast news in France, Italy and Spain is so very different. Even Britain’s once independent-minded BBC now toes the line from Israel while the man who exposed US war crimes in Iraq – Julian Assange – rots in a British maximum-security prison. So much for the famed ‘free press.’

Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2023

yeah, that sounds totally levelheaded, rational, and sane. not.

Which part? About people threatening to throw acid into the faces of Margolis and his mom? I completely agree

So...when there a was state called Palestine?
Was it between 1920-1948 when the UK ruled the land?
Or was it between 1516-1919 when the Ottoman Empire ruled the land?
It seems to me like the history of a state called "Palestine" was invented with the formation of Israel.
So where did the Palestinians come from?
Mainly from Egypt and Jordan.
That's where they truly belong.

I realize that it's become a bit of a meme to ignore the existence of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire, but come on - it was the name of the region even back then...

...
So you saying that modern day Muslims "Palestinians" are the offspring of the Christian Byzantine Empire?
And that was between 395 to 1453 right?
What about the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah? They existed even before christ.
Even in terms of historical entitlement the modern day "Palestinians" have nothing compared to modern day Jews.

And unless Egypt and/or Jordan are willing to accept all modern-day Palestinians into their lands, I'm really not sure why that is relevant. The people are there now. One thing is for sure, bombing them or their home until they're all dead or have fled is not a good solution.

This is such a stupid-ass argument. A people's right to self-determination isn't dependent on whether they, based on your arbitrary opinion, enjoyed that right in the past. But that's beside the point, which is that your argument is also ignorant and ahistorical. Palestinians are native to the region and share strong genetic links to the Canaanites of the 20th century BC-- they are not from 'Egypt and Jordan'. They're as indigenous to the land as the Jewish people are. And a distinct Palestinian national identity had already begun to emerge by the late 19th century, crystallizing in the early 20th century, not with the formation of Israel, and that identity was built on a precedent going back to the biblical era. If the idea of a national identity emerging in the 19th century seems 'too recent' for you, then you should share this bad news with, you know, the many African countries which were only able to construct national identities after the fall of European colonialism in the mid-20th century. I don't see you rushing to reject the existence of the Ivory Coast.

Your post is offensive, uninformed, and has no basis in history, and you should feel ashamed for posting it.

You should feel ashamed for spreading this false accusations and B-rated whataboutism.
By your same logic, the 6 millions Arabs living in France also has a right for self-determination and their own piece of land, because they share a national identity, and the fact that they never ruled over any parts of France is not a factor.
Just so you know, in Malmö, Sweden, there are over 100,000 Muslims, and many of them already claim a right for self-determination and their own piece of land.

This is a very dangerous thing to just let any group of people a right for self-determination even if they never ruled that land, but were mainly refugees/work immigrants.
Here's an example of what could, and is happening right now because of that same logic:

Actually the area called Palestine has been called such since Byzantine Empire and was referred to as Palestine by the Ottomans up until the end of WWI when the League of Nations (the precursor to the UN) created the Mandate for Palestine....giving Britain administration of Palestine and Transjordan. That ended with the 1947 UN Partition Plan for Palestine. Again, that name keeps popping up. There was a land called Palestine and the people in it are Palestinians. They deserve to have a homeland without the fear of occupation or that the neighboring country will arbitrarily build settlements on their land; settlements that seem to house those who want to taunt and intimidate the Palestinians in their own UN recognized lands. Another point to note, Orthodox Jews are vehemently against Zionism and the Hassidim are carrying around Pro Palestinian banners. So you are all kinds of wrong.

Dudes really just be like "WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING IS NOT ETHNIC CLEANSING!" and then dead ass make calls in support for ethnic cleansing.

This conflict is making a good number of people I thought I respected come out of the closet as far right Islamophobes.

The Hassidim who oppose Zionism are pretty much the Westboro Baptists of Judaism. No one likes them and I bet you'd stop liking them the moment you hear about their thoughts on women and gay people. Also, you don't get to use the token Jew card. It's super disturbing: "oh they're the good Jews! Other Jews don't agree with us so they must be silenced!", as if we don't know what happened the last time some Westerners told Jews how to defend themselves.

What strikes me the most as an Israeli is the fact that absolutely no one here has any slight understanding of the regional dynamics. Sure, consuming western media is great, but have any of you guys actually... been here? Tried to understand the people beyond what the current tiktok trend is? Talked to some locals? You guys are stuck in the new Western occupier-occupant mindset too much. This whole region has ALWAYS been a shitfest, and will continue being so until the end of time, because the local mentality is too ingrained in the local cultures, whether be Arab or Jewish.

Please stay out of this. Go touch some grass, read a good book, drink a good beer, do something other than care about people's mentality in an area you have no idea about. We're talking peoples' lives here, not some weird Western ideologies that all they've done was to fuel your colonialism (whether soft or hard powers) in one way or another.

Nah man, we're not gonna pull a 'go touch grass' on this one. I know damn well there are a lot of people with garbage perspectives on this issue or who like to bloviate about it without knowing anything more than what crosses their feed on social media, but most pro-Palestine voices in this thread are not that. Accusing everyone in this thread of being TikTok-afflicted trend-hoppers who need to 'touch grass' just sounds like a bid to shut down conversation about a serious issue, and it's hard not to suspect that owes in part to the discourse in this thread being mostly in favor of Palestinians' rights and self-determination.

no, it actually is the case. i really don't think anyone here understand this situation fully, whether you support hamas or israel.