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Ukrajijajajana
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:07 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:23 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Well, the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is a perfect example of one of the un-intended consequences of a geopolitically weakened Russia. I don't know how some people here in the western op-ed community relished the thought of this, thinking that Russia remains in some sort of vaccuum that doesn't affect anywhere else. Russian soft-power and threat of something more overt kept the Azerbaijanis in line.

Pretty crappy geopolitical analysis. Russian soft power didn't 'keep the Azerbaijanis' in line, Russia worked to basically freeze the conflict by playing both sides. If it perceived one or the other to be gaining the upper hand, it lent a little more weight to its opponent, because a conclusive resolution didn't serve Russia's interests. Why let the issue rest when keeping it alive keeps one or both countries reliant to varying extents on Russia and prevents either of them from wandering out of its sphere of influence?

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That being said, I think that a good deal COULD have been cut for the Armenian ethnic group within a "united" Azerbaijan, if the Armenian political body accepted the inevitable and didn't hang all their hats on the EU and NATO, which they did, and as you can see, nothing came of it. Another dangled carrot. There was a real lack of realpolitik happening with this one.

You seem entirely unaware that to many Armenians, 'the inevitable' you're referring to is ethnic cleansing. After what happened in 1915, after the waves of mass violence against Armenians in Baku and other places in the late 80s, after the constant refusals by the Azeri government simply to guarantee the safety of ethnic Armenians, after the brutality and acts of desecration shown by Azeri soldiers against captured and killed Armenian soldiers, after Azeri violations of ceasefires and agreements, do you really think Armenians are in the habit of assuming that Azerbaijan will do anything in good faith?

And before you try and paint that as all in Armenians' collective head, multiple outside sources, from third party governments to the International Criminal Court, have regarded Azerbaijan's actions as tantamount to genocide and ethnic cleansing. So kindly don't do us the disservice of lecturing us about cutting a deal with people who have never played coy about their desire to see us functionally exterminated from what they consider to be 'their land.'


Who's lecturing who? I stated my opinion on it, of course not being a geo-political expert. Am I not allowed to have one? I'll offer some more of my reasoning on what I said, with the (what should be obvious) caveat that there differing views on this and nobody needs to consider my take as gospel:

I'm not going to go back to 1915 as I am not well versed in this history. However, I am aware that border problems immediately began as the soviet union disintegrated and that the Armenians basically won the war between 1991 and 1994. Russia, as the former imperial power, helped negotiate the ceasefire and guaranteed it. The Armenians of N-K kept all the land they had in Soviet times plus about as much again around it, and a road corridor to Armenia proper guarded by Russian troops. There were several opportunities in the following years to make a peace deal that left all the existing borders in place, but that didn't happen for a variety of factors, some of which can be attributed to turbulent Armenian domestic politics. By 2020, Azerbaijan had used its oil wealth to build up its army and buy attack drones from Turkey, and it started the war again.

We all know what happened next, the Armenian troops in N-K (effectively being run by Armenia) were routed and by the time of the ceasefire (mediated by Putin) even much of the core territory of the enclave had been captured. So had the road leading west to Armenia proper, but Russian troops kept it open. It might have stayed like that for many more years, but the Russians made a huge mistake with the Ukraine debacle. Azerbaijan figured out that the Russians were too distracted to worry about Armenia, so they imposed a blockade on that single road — and the Russian troops did nothing.

Russia had been an ally of Armenia for decades but whether or not it was calculated as a real strategic interest of Russia's, or there were other motivations, is itself debatable. It was therefore foolish for Pashinyan to imagine that the United States can or would take Russia’s place. Seen from Washington, Armenia is an opportunity to embarrass the Russians, but it’s too far away, too inaccessible, too poor and too unimportant to waste much time or money on, let alone American lives.

The Azerbaijani “blockade” is illegal, but it is only on the road from Armenia proper. People in N-K could bring in food any time they want by the roads that connect it to the rest of Azerbaijan. They won’t/didn't, but that’s just a matter of principle.

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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 4:08 pm 
 

Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Well, the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is a perfect example of one of the un-intended consequences of a geopolitically weakened Russia. I don't know how some people here in the western op-ed community relished the thought of this, thinking that Russia remains in some sort of vaccuum that doesn't affect anywhere else. Russian soft-power and threat of something more overt kept the Azerbaijanis in line.

That being said, I think that a good deal COULD have been cut for the Armenian ethnic group within a "united" Azerbaijan, if the Armenian political body accepted the inevitable and didn't hang all their hats on the EU and NATO, which they did, and as you can see, nothing came of it. Another dangled carrot. There was a real lack of realpolitik happening with this one.


I have no data to back this up, but the feeling I get is that Russia's current military capacity would have been more than enough to prevent the atrocities in Nagorno-Karabakh, as it would probably be a million percent less demanding than trying to militarily occupy and conquer Ukraine. They could have stopped their genocidal invasion at any time and freed up their military capacity, so the blame is entirely theirs.
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Ukrajijajajana
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 129
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:21 am 
 

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Well, the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is a perfect example of one of the un-intended consequences of a geopolitically weakened Russia. I don't know how some people here in the western op-ed community relished the thought of this, thinking that Russia remains in some sort of vaccuum that doesn't affect anywhere else. Russian soft-power and threat of something more overt kept the Azerbaijanis in line.

That being said, I think that a good deal COULD have been cut for the Armenian ethnic group within a "united" Azerbaijan, if the Armenian political body accepted the inevitable and didn't hang all their hats on the EU and NATO, which they did, and as you can see, nothing came of it. Another dangled carrot. There was a real lack of realpolitik happening with this one.


I have no data to back this up, but the feeling I get is that Russia's current military capacity would have been more than enough to prevent the atrocities in Nagorno-Karabakh, as it would probably be a million percent less demanding than trying to militarily occupy and conquer Ukraine. They could have stopped their genocidal invasion at any time and freed up their military capacity, so the blame is entirely theirs.


I'm sorry, but.... atrocities? Are we reading the same news sources?

I would say that what happened in N-K is a tragedy, but it is not a genocide.

At the border, Armenians are arriving in their own cars, piled high with their belongings, and claim that they have been ethnically cleansed, but they don’t tell tales of horror and there’s nobody chasing them. Indeed, the Azerbaijani government officially says that they are welcome to remain, and it has allowed a UN fact-finding mission in to see what has been happening in the enclave. There have been no credible reports of harm coming to Armenian residents since the 24-hour war ended on Sept 20.

The Armenian-only republic will officially cease to exist but the Azerbaijani regime stresses that the residents continue to have the legal status of Azerbaijani citizens. Now, I fully understand the Armenian skepticism and unwillingness to test those waters, and therefore the impetus to self-exile, but that in and of itself is HIGHLY different than say, what the Serbs were doing in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, or what the Israelis do in the West Bank, or what ISIS and the US-backed "moderate al-qaeda" was doing to non-Sunnis in Syria.... heck, even different to what both Russia and Ukraine were doing to each other in Eastern Ukraine (Russia is doing it now, the ukies were at it at a low level since 2014 and before this current war).

But the Armenian president specifically says that it's a genocide, same with the recent op-ed in the Washington post from a former ICC prosecutor, but to me this is hyperbole. Saying stuff doesn't make it true. This isn't the Armenian genocide that the Ottomans perpetrated no matter how much people will try and draw parallels to it. Maybe it's because the Azerbaijanis are closely related to Turks and therefore suspect.

Something closer to the truth was voiced by one of Shahramanyan's (N-K president) advisors: “Our people do not want to live as part of Azerbaijan. Ninety-nine point nine percent prefer to leave our historic lands.”

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Ezadara
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 2:07 pm 
 

If the International Association of Genocide Scholars, the Council on Foreign Relations, the European Parliament, USAID, multiple academic experts on genocide, and yes, the inaugural Chief Prosecutor of the ICC, all agreeing that there are at bare minimum atrocities/crimes against humanity and more likely outright ethnic cleansing happening in the region isn't enough for you, then I doubt a post on a metal forum is going to convince you. But you don't get to pretend the facts and the weight of expert testimony is on your side, and you certainly don't get to pretend that your perspective is equally valid.

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Trashy_Rambo
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Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:24 pm 
 

Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Trashy_Rambo wrote:
Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Well, the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is a perfect example of one of the un-intended consequences of a geopolitically weakened Russia. I don't know how some people here in the western op-ed community relished the thought of this, thinking that Russia remains in some sort of vaccuum that doesn't affect anywhere else. Russian soft-power and threat of something more overt kept the Azerbaijanis in line.

That being said, I think that a good deal COULD have been cut for the Armenian ethnic group within a "united" Azerbaijan, if the Armenian political body accepted the inevitable and didn't hang all their hats on the EU and NATO, which they did, and as you can see, nothing came of it. Another dangled carrot. There was a real lack of realpolitik happening with this one.


I have no data to back this up, but the feeling I get is that Russia's current military capacity would have been more than enough to prevent the atrocities in Nagorno-Karabakh, as it would probably be a million percent less demanding than trying to militarily occupy and conquer Ukraine. They could have stopped their genocidal invasion at any time and freed up their military capacity, so the blame is entirely theirs.


I'm sorry, but.... atrocities? Are we reading the same news sources?

I would say that what happened in N-K is a tragedy, but it is not a genocide.

At the border, Armenians are arriving in their own cars, piled high with their belongings, and claim that they have been ethnically cleansed, but they don’t tell tales of horror and there’s nobody chasing them. Indeed, the Azerbaijani government officially says that they are welcome to remain, and it has allowed a UN fact-finding mission in to see what has been happening in the enclave. There have been no credible reports of harm coming to Armenian residents since the 24-hour war ended on Sept 20.

The Armenian-only republic will officially cease to exist but the Azerbaijani regime stresses that the residents continue to have the legal status of Azerbaijani citizens. Now, I fully understand the Armenian skepticism and unwillingness to test those waters, and therefore the impetus to self-exile, but that in and of itself is HIGHLY different than say, what the Serbs were doing in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, or what the Israelis do in the West Bank, or what ISIS and the US-backed "moderate al-qaeda" was doing to non-Sunnis in Syria.... heck, even different to what both Russia and Ukraine were doing to each other in Eastern Ukraine (Russia is doing it now, the ukies were at it at a low level since 2014 and before this current war).

But the Armenian president specifically says that it's a genocide, same with the recent op-ed in the Washington post from a former ICC prosecutor, but to me this is hyperbole. Saying stuff doesn't make it true. This isn't the Armenian genocide that the Ottomans perpetrated no matter how much people will try and draw parallels to it. Maybe it's because the Azerbaijanis are closely related to Turks and therefore suspect.

Something closer to the truth was voiced by one of Shahramanyan's (N-K president) advisors: “Our people do not want to live as part of Azerbaijan. Ninety-nine point nine percent prefer to leave our historic lands.”


To clarify, when I said "They could have stopped their genocidal invasion at any time..." I was referring to Ukraine. Russia could have ceased their aggression in that country at any time and likely had more than sufficient resources to fulfill their obligations in Nagorno-Karabakh.
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hakarl
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:15 am 
 

Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Well, the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is a perfect example of one of the un-intended consequences of a geopolitically weakened Russia. I don't know how some people here in the western op-ed community relished the thought of this, thinking that Russia remains in some sort of vaccuum that doesn't affect anywhere else. Russian soft-power and threat of something more overt kept the Azerbaijanis in line.

That being said, I think that a good deal COULD have been cut for the Armenian ethnic group within a "united" Azerbaijan, if the Armenian political body accepted the inevitable and didn't hang all their hats on the EU and NATO, which they did, and as you can see, nothing came of it. Another dangled carrot. There was a real lack of realpolitik happening with this one.

Coming up with justifications for capitulating to Russian aggression is indeed a difficult - and thankless - task.
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Ukrajijajajana
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:07 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:26 pm 
 

Trashy_Rambo:

Gotcha, now I understand what you were saying. Thanks for the clarification

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Ukrajijajajana
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 129
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:27 pm 
 

hakarl wrote:
Ukrajijajajana wrote:
Well, the Nagorno-Karabakh situation is a perfect example of one of the un-intended consequences of a geopolitically weakened Russia. I don't know how some people here in the western op-ed community relished the thought of this, thinking that Russia remains in some sort of vaccuum that doesn't affect anywhere else. Russian soft-power and threat of something more overt kept the Azerbaijanis in line.

That being said, I think that a good deal COULD have been cut for the Armenian ethnic group within a "united" Azerbaijan, if the Armenian political body accepted the inevitable and didn't hang all their hats on the EU and NATO, which they did, and as you can see, nothing came of it. Another dangled carrot. There was a real lack of realpolitik happening with this one.

Coming up with justifications for capitulating to Russian aggression is indeed a difficult - and thankless - task.


I never said that. I really don't understand what it is with this all-or-nothing mentality. I am of the opinion that 2 things can both be true at the same time

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kazhard
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:26 pm 
 

I think it's a very sad day when you have college students who've been pampered all their life, who don't have a fucking clue about what human misery is, cheering at those hamas snakes kidnapping (and god knows what else) children and women and shooting at unarmed civilians. I just hope this will be over soon and that those responsible will take it in the ass properly.
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:14 pm 
 

They might. But the most pain and hurt will be felt by everyday Israelis and Palestinians.

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SanPeron
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:04 pm 
 

While they are mostly savages who have a very retrograde vision of the Quran, Hamas is an invention of the Israeli occupation and this is a war that has lasted since the mid-XX century. But every terrorist attack is a cowardly one and all the democratic free countries must condemn Hamas's actions in Israel.

At this point, I am very pessimistic about the future of Gaza, Muslims, and Jews have decided that they must kill each other. No matter what agreement they have on the territory it will ultimately fail and lead to a bloodbath.
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RainyTheBusinessPerson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:10 pm 
 

The Israeli state has been doing the same thing for years and you don't see so many people complaining about that. Yeah, Hamas is an extremist group, but the state of Israel is also one of the worst governments in the world, perpetuating a terrible apartheid (no matter how much they try to deny it) and constantly targeting civilians, mosques, hospitals and so on, and I can't blame people for clinging onto whatever they have fighting against the aggressor state. The more unstable and violent the situation in a place, the more likely it is for extreme groups to rise. Groups like ISIS, Taliban and Al-Qaeda have all gained power during moments where civilians have been suffering for years, either due to war or invasion. It's the same with hateful neo-nazi groups, which grow incredibly fast and tend to rise to power during moments of economic and political instability (see Poland and Ukraine for a concerning example, but also almost all of Europe during different moments in history). All this stuff is the consequence of the state's actions.

Ideally, people would not take part in fascism and the like, but we don't live in an ideal world, and it's silly to think that it's a simple "good vs evil" narrative like the media wants to portray. I really wish there was an instant world peace solution for life, but there isn't. But there is a lot of nuance to every single thing in life, and if we look at the nuances, things are easier to understand (unfortunately, not really easy to solve, because again, we don't live in an ideal world). There is never one side to any story, humans are complex and life is full of contradictions. It's impossible to actually predict anything, but you can learn to identify most of the seeds for potential conflicts and whatnot very early on, you can only guess which seed will grow first, which will grow faster and so on, but none of this comes out of nowhere.
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kazhard
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:28 pm 
 

Imagine defending the kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of women, children, holocaust survivors and somehow thinking it will work in their favour. lol.
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BuriedUnborn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:10 am 
 

I don't usually come around here (or anywhere, for that matter), let alone to talk politics, but I swear to God that I can't fucking bear being on the internet these last two days because the sheer level of bias everyone has regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict is fucking incredible, really. I'll just state some points:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization regardless of how you look at them. They target civilians, their struggle is armed instead of political, and they basically run Gaza as, practically, a dictatorship. They took power through what was basically a coup. Their management of Gaza has turned the Palestinians in Gaza into pariahs, with the strip having less GDP per capita, being more dangerous and overall a worse place than the West Bank, where the Fatah rules.

2. Supporting Hamas is, at least indirectly, supporting the appliance of Islamic fundamentalism not only in what is present-day Palestine, but in the territory controlled by Israel too. Islamic fundamentalism means the almost entire lack of rights for women, the death penalty for homosexuals, and what practically becomes a police state which applies laws based not on ethics, but on cultural and religious values. Supporting the Palestine liberation movement and supporting Hamas are two different things, however, justifying Hamas' actions is the same as supporting them.

3. Israel has definitely killed many Palestinian civilians and imposed their rule over the land. The Israeli state is clearly warmongering, and they honestly just got themselves into a vicious cycle by which they are attacked in retaliation, and they attack back, but this has honestly been the case ever since their inception, and this issue goes all the way back to the Great War, after the UK didn't deliver on their promise of a unified Arab state in exchange for the support of Arab nations against the Central Powers. This in no way, shape or form justifies the actions that Hamas troops, and Palestinian civilians, have taken against Israeli civilians. If you think it does, then you're sick in the head.

This is not a "good vs bad" situation, really, but there's clearly a difference between Israel and Hamas in this case. Unlike Israel, Hamas launched a ground attack in which they've committed widespread murder, rape and kidnapping, not only of Israeli civilians, but of Germans, Americans, British and people of more nationalities. This is not justifiable by saying "but Israel killed civilians!", this logic would justify all the genocides committed in the Yugoslav War, where everyone ethnically cleansed each other.

You don't have to support Israel, but if anyone supports or justifies the atrocities being committed on men, women, children, the elderly, Holocaust survivors, gay people, disabled people, and more, almost entirely because of religious and/or ethnic reasons, you'd fit right in with the local Nazi party.
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:56 am 
 

I don't support Israel, because it's basically a fully fledged ethnostate, and Hamas' actions pale in comparison to the breadth of apartheid.

BUT what Hamas did is barbaric beyond words. Even beyond the fact that intentionally butchering civilians is fucking abhorrent, they continue to set back the cause of Palestinian liberation.

The fact that my fellow leftists all over the internet are defending this is kind of making me insane. Between this and Ukraine, I've lost so much faith.
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des91
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:09 am 
 

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant but would the Vikings be considered a terrorist/Nazi kinda? Since they felt they were oppressed and took it out through revenge with violence?

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kazhard
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:13 am 
 

This ''rararah blame Israel'' shit is getting old pretty fast. Also, congrats to you guys for barely hiding your antisemitic feelings.
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:50 am 
 

kazhard wrote:
This ''rararah blame Israel'' shit is getting old pretty fast. Also, congrats to you guys for barely hiding your antisemitic feelings.

It's not antisemitic to acknowledge the Netanyahu government's role in laying the groundwork for what's happening now. Or is Haaretz now antisemitic too? Come on. We will never make any meaningful progress on this issue as long as literally any criticism of Israel is conflated with 'antisemitism' (not to mention the fact that calling any criticism of Israel antisemitic pushes the notion that Israel and Jews are synonymous-- a notion that has itself been used to antisemitic ends and which Jews around the world have tried for years to do away with).

Nobody here is celebrating what Hamas is doing. I'm a strong supporter of the rights of Palestinians and I will mince no words about the barbarity and inhumanity of Hamas's actions. The inability of many on the left and in pro-Palestine quarters to just come out and say this 100% obvious fact, as Trashy_Rambo said, is profoundly disappointing and destructive. But at some point, there needs to be a conversation about this more nuanced than 'any criticism of Israel is antisemitism'. Otherwise, how are we supposed to create any kind of lasting resolution?

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:56 am 
 

kazhard wrote:
This ''rararah blame Israel'' shit is getting old pretty fast. Also, congrats to you guys for barely hiding your antisemitic feelings.

Nothing antisemitic about acknowledging that Israels treatment of the Palestinians plays a huge role in empowering Al-Qae- I mean Hamas.

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
I don't support Israel, because it's basically a fully fledged ethnostate, and Hamas' actions pale in comparison to the breadth of apartheid.

BUT what Hamas did is barbaric beyond words. Even beyond the fact that intentionally butchering civilians is fucking abhorrent, they continue to set back the cause of Palestinian liberation.

The fact that my fellow leftists all over the internet are defending this is kind of making me insane. Between this and Ukraine, I've lost so much faith.

Yeah it's been fucking wild seeing people justifying the slaughter of 250+ music festival goers and hundreds of other civilians. And not just online, around the world as well. Not a small amount of blatant antisemitism as well amongst the crowds celebrating.
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kazhard
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:28 am 
 

It hardly matters right now, just trying to rationalize any of this should make any non-shitty human being feel physically sick.
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:49 am 
 

Ezadara wrote:
The inability of many on the left and in pro-Palestine quarters to just come out and say this 100% obvious fact, as Trashy_Rambo said, is profoundly disappointing and destructive. But at some point, there needs to be a conversation about this more nuanced than 'any criticism of Israel is antisemitism'. Otherwise, how are we supposed to create any kind of lasting resolution?


Yes. The unwillingness of many to condemn this atrocity on the basis of "It's not my place to judge how people fight for liberation" is moral cowardice, plain and simple.

I know it's scary for people to criticize movements they ostensibly support*, but if we have any principles at all, we MUST. A better world can never be achieved through indiscriminate butchery.

*Based on the discourse that's happening, people see Hamas as inseparable from Palestinian liberation. This is obviously wrong, but it's the framework people are using, so I argue accordingly.
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:14 pm 
 

kazhard wrote:
It hardly matters right now, just trying to rationalize any of this should make any non-shitty human being feel physically sick.

Yes, obviously everyone here is sickened by the violence, don't try and make it seem like some of us aren't.

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
Yes. The unwillingness of many to condemn this atrocity on the basis of "It's not my place to judge how people fight for liberation" is moral cowardice, plain and simple.

I know it's scary for people to criticize movements they ostensibly support*, but if we have any principles at all, we MUST. A better world can never be achieved through indiscriminate butchery.

*Based on the discourse that's happening, people see Hamas as inseparable from Palestinian liberation. This is obviously wrong, but it's the framework people are using, so I argue accordingly.

The idea that this is Palestinians 'fighting for liberation' is such garbage. It's not. This is Hamas realizing it was losing power and deciding to just blow everything up, dooming the cause of Palestinian rights for a generation in the process. They don't care. Everyday Palestinians will pay the price for years to come. I wish those supporters of Palestinians who are unwilling to criticize this inhumanity would recognize that, but I'm sure many won't.

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des91
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:38 pm 
 

I do think that violence may be inevitable in some situations such as the Palestine one TO A VERY SMALL DEGREE. As in, combatants to combatant. Not fucking killing, raping innocent civilians especially woman and children. That’s disgusting, and you’re going to get what’s coming to you for shit like that.

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SanPeron
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:06 pm 
 

des91 wrote:
I do think that violence may be inevitable in some situations such as the Palestine one TO A VERY SMALL DEGREE. As in, combatants to combatant. Not fucking killing, raping innocent civilians especially woman and children. That’s disgusting, and you’re going to get what’s coming to you for shit like that.


People talk about this war like it was created yesterday by the acts of Hamas, which are despicable and horrent, yes, but this conflict has a very long history of violence. And the Israelis have killed a lot more people than the Palestinians.

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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:15 pm 
 

Still, the day Hamas attacked saw the most Jews killed in a single day since... the Holocaust. People have got to understand what that, along with images of Israelis being dragged from their homes and murdered in the streets Kristallnacht-style, means to Israelis.

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Ukrajijajajana
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:52 pm 
 

kazhard wrote:
This ''rararah blame Israel'' shit is getting old pretty fast. Also, congrats to you guys for barely hiding your antisemitic feelings.


May I suggest that you calm down with this type of accusation, especially since not one post in this thread so far has anything antisemitic in it whatsoever. The posters here have justly condemned the Hamas attack, while still wanting to discuss the whole reasons why this happened in the first place... nothing exists in a vaccuum in and of itself, and if we want to find lasting solutions to conflicts, we need to be ready to discuss the overall general contexts without fear that our colleagues will point the finger at us.

I remember the war on terror, when journalists like Eric Margolis and others, but Margolis especially (who always warned that some type of black swan event was bound to happen as blow-back for American imperial misadventures in the Muslim world, though he didn't know exactly how it would look like), they were deemed not "patriotic" enough after 9/11 in their more sober examination of geo-political realities, that they were ran off the papers and the networks into near-obscurity. It's funny that, all these years later, we almost never talk about 9/11 without also talking about the US' pre- and post- blunders in the middle east.

I see this almost exact dynamic playing out here in the media. Even a lukewarm deviation is automatically frowned upon and the NYT just wrote on op-ed which basically equates to any criticism of Israeli policy to automatically meaning that you refute the state's right to exist. But there was at least one person in the comments that made some sense, and they said:

"Several things can be true at once:

Hamas' attack on Israeli civilians over the weekend was pure, mass terrorism, crimes against humanity, and grievous violations of the laws of war. The people who planned and carried out those attacks deserve to be hunted down and completely wiped out. I hope the IDF takes that fight to Hamas and eradicates them from Gaza permanently.

Israel declaring that no food and no water will be allowed into Gaza is also a violation of the laws of war. It is collective punishment and targeting a large civilian population for destruction. If it's more than just tough talk and is actually carried out for any significant length of time, then this could even constitute genocide. Even if the civilian population in Gaza broadly celebrates Hamas' attacks on Israelis that doesn't mean they are now a valid military target.

Israel intentionally making a two state peace deal impossible, which is all Israel (Bibi in particular) has done over the two decades, isn't a real solution and will only make violent eruptions like this one more and more likely. The status quo cannot persist and will eventually result in some kind of genocide or mass expulsion -- most likely of the Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza -- when no other solution seems viable."

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des91
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:23 pm 
 

That’s the issue, people think that just because Gaza civilians support the attack, they deserve to die too. This mentality has been what drives the massive death tolls in Palestine. I will say that mentality is extremely hard to break. And the world has to come together to undo that.

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Disembodied
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:38 pm 
 

These attacks are heartbreaking. I've been hearing on the news that Israel has to make sure this never happens again. I can't see that happening if it's done through iron fist rule and suppression, while settlements continue being built next to palestinian slums. How about we care for one another? Haven't we seen enough evidence that vengeance breeds only more vengeance?

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:39 am 
 

des91 wrote:
That’s the issue, people think that just because Gaza civilians support the attack, they deserve to die too. This mentality has been what drives the massive death tolls in Palestine. I will say that mentality is extremely hard to break. And the world has to come together to undo that.

This. You can be against Zionism and not be an anti-Semite. Which also means you can simultaneously think a terrorist organization like Hamas should not be murdering civilians. So tired of having to explain it. Both the state of Israel an Hamas are equally horrible and should be obliterated but that doesn't mean the Israeli civilians and Palestinians should be mass murdered.

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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:31 am 
 

Yeah, the enws are really depressing. War in Ukraine and war between Hamas and Israel... And a lot of people feel forced to somehow "take sides"? And people on the Internet don't make it better. Support Israel (who's been victim of a vicious attack) and somehow you support apartheid. Support Palestine and you're an anti-semite who support terrorists... No one has place for nuance. I just see innocent people being killed, and people in power who vow to make things worse (the israeli rhetoric has been particularly dreadful). Just fucking horrible.

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kazhard
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:18 pm 
 

Ukrajijajajana wrote:
kazhard wrote:
This ''rararah blame Israel'' shit is getting old pretty fast. Also, congrats to you guys for barely hiding your antisemitic feelings.


May I suggest that you calm down with this type of accusation, especially since not one post in this thread so far has anything antisemitic in it whatsoever.


No, you may not. May I suggest that you do not tone police me?

I just think it’s a strange time to be accusing Israel of reaping what they sow is all, I’m not against criticizing Israel but it’s hardly the time to do so. The same way we didn’t go and blame Americans for 9/11, mere days after it happened. Stop acting like I’m the delusional one, I have to witness students and other people violently demonstrating against Israel in my own city, a city in which hate crimes against Jews have been on the rise for the past few years. There has been two violent attacks on Jews since the beginning of the summer only.

One cook was attacked at his workplace with a pair of scissors and another man was beaten by two teenagers who wanted to steal his Israel flag. So, you’ll excuse me if I see antisemitism everywhere.

I live next to the largest Jewish community in Montreal and I think that it’s pretty fucking insulting for them to have to deal with people in the streets spitting on them, on their flag and rationalizing this attack as ''payback'' and calling them « Zionists » without any proof. Zionist, a word frequently use by *gasps* antisemites.

Here is a suggestion of my own, can you not accuse me of ''ostensibly'' supporting Israel. I support Israel period, you don’t know me or what I stand for. You don’t see me accusing you guys of not being « leftist » enough so how about you start to give me the same benefit of the doubt?

And for those geniuses out there who think I don’t know this is an attack by hamas and not the Palestinians, get the fuck outta here. I never mentioned the Palestinians once in any of my posts, I’ve specifically said « hamas ».
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:30 pm 
 

Has the Israeli government not been propping up Hamas for some time in order to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state? That seems to be the most clear cut example of "you reap what you sow" I've seen in a bit, though unfortunately the ones reaping are innocent Israelis, rather than the right-wing ideologues who put those policies into action.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:22 pm 
 

kazhard wrote:
No, you may not. May I suggest that you do not tone police me?

I just think it’s a strange time to be accusing Israel of reaping what they sow is all, I’m not against criticizing Israel but it’s hardly the time to do so. The same way we didn’t go and blame Americans for 9/11, mere days after it happened. Stop acting like I’m the delusional one, I have to witness students and other people violently demonstrating against Israel in my own city, a city in which hate crimes against Jews have been on the rise for the past few years. There has been two violent attacks on Jews since the beginning of the summer only.

One cook was attacked at his workplace with a pair of scissors and another man was beaten by two teenagers who wanted to steal his Israel flag. So, you’ll excuse me if I see antisemitism everywhere.

I live next to the largest Jewish community in Montreal and I think that it’s pretty fucking insulting for them to have to deal with people in the streets spitting on them, on their flag and rationalizing this attack as ''payback'' and calling them « Zionists » without any proof. Zionist, a word frequently use by *gasps* antisemites.

Here is a suggestion of my own, can you not accuse me of ''ostensibly'' supporting Israel. I support Israel period, you don’t know me or what I stand for. You don’t see me accusing you guys of not being « leftist » enough so how about you start to give me the same benefit of the doubt?

And for those geniuses out there who think I don’t know this is an attack by hamas and not the Palestinians, get the fuck outta here. I never mentioned the Palestinians once in any of my posts, I’ve specifically said « hamas ».

I'm really sorry that you have to experience that. People being attacked like that is absolutely sickening. I know that antisemitic attacks are far too real in all parts of the world, and being reminded of that is welcome.

That said, nobody here has condoned antisemitic attacks, or expressed antisemitic views - that I can see, at least. As this is a thread about politics, it will be open to reasonable criticism of the state of Israel. I understand that this topic can be upsetting at this time due to the horrible attacks, but we aren't going to police legitimate criticisms due to that. What you can do is bow out until such a time that discussing the topic isn't too painful.
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rrev0
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:58 pm 
 

kazhard wrote:
I just think it’s a strange time to be accusing Israel of reaping what they sow is all, I’m not against criticizing Israel but it’s hardly the time to do so. The same way we didn’t go and blame Americans for 9/11, mere days after it happened. Stop acting like I’m the delusional one, I have to witness students and other people violently demonstrating against Israel in my own city, a city in which hate crimes against Jews have been on the rise for the past few years. There has been two violent attacks on Jews since the beginning of the summer only.


American foreign policy absolutely deserves criticism for resulting in terrorism that had forever been passed off as purely religious extremism.

No serious person believes that either America or Israel has purposefully been inviting attacks on their citizens. And no serious person believes their citizens deserve it. That being said, Israel's policy and actions have created an environment that made events like this a near-inevitability.

Palestinians are suffering and have been suffering. Hamas is brutal and more than misguided in what they've done, but there's a very real fear that the response is going to be worse (and might already be) for the regular people there who simply want freedom. And they're going to see this as nothing more than a brutal escalation of oppression that they've already lived under.

My best friend in college was actually former IDF special forces, and a practicing jew. He told me about a lot of the stuff he saw and experienced there. He's probably the biggest antizionist I know, and I kind of understand it.

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Ezadara
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:32 pm 
 

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
Has the Israeli government not been propping up Hamas for some time in order to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state? That seems to be the most clear cut example of "you reap what you sow" I've seen in a bit, though unfortunately the ones reaping are innocent Israelis, rather than the right-wing ideologues who put those policies into action.

I wouldn't say they're 'propping Hamas up', as in have been doing so in recent history, but Israel absolutely played a crucial role in Hamas's rise to power. They viewed the nascent Hamas (and the organizations that preceded it under the leadership of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin) as a counter to Fatah and the PLO, and they provided Hamas and its predecessors with material aid as a means of weakening what they perceived to be the dominant powers in Palestine at the time. They viewed the Islamist movement as a principally religious movement that was less violently opposed to Israel than Fatah and therefore less of a threat. By the time the Israeli government recognized Hamas had metastasized into a violent and explicitly anti-Israel force around 1987 or 88, it was obviously a little too late.

This was decades ago, back in the 70s and early 80s-- the people who made those decisions are, for the most part, gone. As you said, it's Israeli civilians today and everyday Palestinians who now get to pay the price for the shortsightedness of those policymakers.

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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:29 pm 
 

That's pretty close to my understanding of the situation, although it definitely appears that doctrine hasn't gone away. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/09/is ... -alliance/
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Ukrajijajajana
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:29 pm 
 

Ezadara's analysis is definitely accurate, and I would add that it has also been a policy of Netenyahu's specifically, in more recent times.

The most recent Seymour Hersh article goes into some detail about this, along with some other things... I think it's a good read. I produce it for you below:

*************

‘NETANYAHU IS FINISHED’
The Bibi doctrine—his belief that he could control Hamas—compromised Israeli security and has now begat a bloody war


Decades ago I spent three years writing The Samson Option (1991), an exposé of the unstated policy of American presidents going back to Dwight Eisenhower to look the other way as Israel began the process of building an atomic bomb. The right or wrong for Israel, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, was not the point of the book. My point was that what America was doing was known throughout the Third World, as it was then called, and our duplicity made our worries about the spread of nuclear weapons another example of American hypocrisy. Since then others have undertaken far more comprehensive studies, as some of the most highly classified Israeli and US documents have become public.

I chose not to go to Israel to do my research in fear of running afoul of Israeli national security law. But I found Israelis living abroad who had worked on the secret project and were willing to talk to me once I indicated I had information from American intelligence files. Those who worked on such highly classified materials have remained loyal to Israel, and a few of them became lifelong friends of mine. They have also remained in close touch with former colleagues who stayed in Israel.

This is an account of the past week’s horrific events in Israel, as seen by a veteran of Israel’s national security apparatus with inside knowledge of recent happenings.

The most important thing I needed to understand, the Israeli insider told me, is that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “is finished. He is a walking dead man. He will stay in office only until the shooting stops . . . maybe another month or two.” He served as prime minister from 1996 until 1999 and again, as leader of the right-wing Likud Party, from 2009 to 2021, returning for a third stint in late 2022. “Bibi was always opposed to the 1993 Oslo Accords,” the insider said, which initially gave the Palestinian Authority nominal control over both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. When he returned to office in 2009, the insider said, “Bibi chose to support Hamas” as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority, “and gave them money and established them in Gaza.”

An arrangement was made with Qatar, which began sending hundreds of millions of dollars to the Hamas leadership with Israeli approval. The insider told me that “Bibi was convinced that he would have more control over Hamas with the Qatari money—let them occasionally fire rockets into southern Israel and have access to jobs inside Israel—than he would with the Palestinian Authority. He took that risk.

“What happened this week,” the insider said, “was a result of the Bibi doctrine that you could create a Frankenstein and have control over it.” The attack by Hamas was a direct result of a decision Bibi made, over the protest of local military commanders, “to allow a group of Orthodox settlers to celebrate Sukkot in the West Bank.” Sukkot is an annual fall holiday that commemorates the ancestral journey of Jews into the depths of the desert. It is a weeklong festival that is observed by building an outdoor temporary structure known as a sukkah in which all could share the food that their predecessors ate and viscerally connect to the harvest season.

The request came at a time of extreme tension over another West Bank incident in which Jewish settlers, according to the Associated Press, “rampaged through a flashpoint town” on October 6 and killed a 19-year-old Arab male. The youth’s death, the AP report added, “marked the latest in a surge in Israeli-Palestinian fighting that so far has killed nearly 200 Palestinians this year—the highest yearly death toll in about two decades.”

The Sukkot celebration, held near a Palestinian village known in Hebrew as Haware, would need extraordinary protection, given the tension over the latest violence, and the local Israeli military authorities, with the approval of Netanyahu, ordered two of the three Army battalions, each with about 800 soldiers, that protected the border with Gaza to shift their focus to the Sukkot festival.

“That left only eight hundred soldiers,” the insider told me, “to be responsible for guarding the 51-kilometer border between the Gaza Strip and southern Israel. That meant the Israeli citizens in the south were left without an Israeli military presence for ten to twelve hours. They were left to fend for themselves. And that is why Bibi is finished. May take a few months, but he is over.”

The insider called the attack in southern Israel “the great military failure in Israeli history” and pointed out that “only soldiers were killed in the ’73 war”—the surprise attack on Yom Kippur in which Israel was briefly overrun by Egyptian and Syrian troops. “Last Saturday twenty-two settlements in the south were under control of Hamas for hours, and they went house to house slaughtering women and children.”

There will be a military response, the insider said, noting that 360,000 reservists have been called up. “There is a big debate going on about strategy. The Israeli Air Force and Navy special forces are ready to go, but Bibi and the military leadership have always favored the high-tech services. The regular army has been used primarily as security guards in the West Bank. . . . The reality is that the ground forces are not trained for combat. Don’t misunderstand—there is confidence in the spirit of the troops but not in their ability to succeed in the ‘special situation’ that the soldiers would be facing in a ground assault” in the ruins of heavily bombed Gaza City.

The reservists are now undergoing crash training and a decision of what to do may come by the end of this week, the insider said. Meanwhile, the current bombing of civilian targets—apartment buildings, hospitals, and mosques—no longer includes a token civilian safeguard. In prior attacks in Gaza City, he said, the Israeli Air Force often would drop a small bomb on the roof of a civilian facility to be targeted—it was called “a knock on the roof”—that would theoretically alert noncombatants to flee the building. That is not happening in the current round-the-clock bombing raids.

As for a ground attack, the insider told me that there is a brutal alternative under consideration that could be described as the Leningrad approach, referring to the famed German effort to starve out the city now known as St. Petersburg during World War II. The Nazi siege lasted nearly 900 days and the death toll was at least 800,000 and possibly many more. It is known that the Hamas leadership and much of its manpower “live underground,” and Israel’s goal is to destroy as much of that manpower “without attempting a traditional house-to-house attack.”

The insider added that some Israelis were “made anxious” by the initial statements from world leaders in Germany, France, and England who avowed, in one case through an aide, their total support for an immediate response but added that it should be guided by the rule of law. President Biden reinforced that point in an unscheduled appearance at a White House conference of Jewish leaders Wednesday by pointedly saying that he had recently told Netanyahu: “it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just—I don’t know how to explain it—that exists is that they operate by the rules of war—the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”

The option now under consideration, the Israeli insider told me, is to continue the isolation of Gaza City in terms of power supply and the delivery of food and other vital goods. “Hamas now only has a two- or three-day supply of purified water and that, along with a lack of food,” I was told, “may be enough to flush all the Hamas out.” At some point, he said, Israel may be able to negotiate the release of some prisoners—women and children—in return for food and water.

“The big debate today,” he said, “is whether to starve Hamas out or kill as many as 100,000 people in Gaza. One Israeli assumption is that Hamas, which has received as much as $1.6 billion from Qatar since 2014, wants to be seen as a sovereign that takes care of its people. He went on: “Now that President Biden says they are a terrorist state, Hamas may have reason to want to be seen as less hostile and there might be a chance for calm and rational discussion about prisoners—and a release of some of its Israeli hostages, beginning with women and children.” The other prisoners will be treated like prisoners of war, he said, and their release could be negotiated, as has happened in the past.

But, the insider added, “the more we all see” of Hamas brutality on TV and “the more Hamas is seen as another ISIS, time gets short.”

The reality, he said, is that Hamas is not rational and is incapable of any negotiations, and Qatar will not intervene. And, barring some international or third-party intervention, there may be a general ground invasion with untold deaths to all sides and to all prisoners.

The decision to invade in full force is Israel’s, and it has not yet been made.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:06 pm 
 

Internet and electricity has been cut off in Gaza amid intense bombing from Israel. They are continuing their genocidal campaign but now in the dark.
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naverhtrad
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:38 pm 
 

rrev0 wrote:
kazhard wrote:
I just think it’s a strange time to be accusing Israel of reaping what they sow is all, I’m not against criticizing Israel but it’s hardly the time to do so. The same way we didn’t go and blame Americans for 9/11, mere days after it happened. Stop acting like I’m the delusional one, I have to witness students and other people violently demonstrating against Israel in my own city, a city in which hate crimes against Jews have been on the rise for the past few years. There has been two violent attacks on Jews since the beginning of the summer only.


American foreign policy absolutely deserves criticism for resulting in terrorism that had forever been passed off as purely religious extremism.

No serious person believes that either America or Israel has purposefully been inviting attacks on their citizens. And no serious person believes their citizens deserve it. That being said, Israel's policy and actions have created an environment that made events like this a near-inevitability.

Palestinians are suffering and have been suffering. Hamas is brutal and more than misguided in what they've done, but there's a very real fear that the response is going to be worse (and might already be) for the regular people there who simply want freedom. And they're going to see this as nothing more than a brutal escalation of oppression that they've already lived under.

My best friend in college was actually former IDF special forces, and a practicing jew. He told me about a lot of the stuff he saw and experienced there. He's probably the biggest antizionist I know, and I kind of understand it.


Can I just +1 this comment? This is a well-crafted, well-thought out and educated response, and I agree with practically all of it, though I come from a somewhat different perspective.

I'm a convert to Orthodox Christianity, and I spent a significant amount of time going to church with Syrian, Lebanese and Palestinian Christians. These are people who never supported Hamas or any other Islamist group, but who certainly saw the Palestinian cause as 'their own', and many of them had been dispossessed, or had family who were dispossessed, mostly from the West Bank. It was heartbreaking to see the IDF attack the monastery of St Porphyrios in Gaza and kill 17 people in the parish centre there while they slept... in the name of attacking Hamas.

Hamas, like all Sunni Islamist terrorist groups, is cancer. Their ideology is horrible, and, as we all witnessed, they do unconscionable things in pursuit of that ideology. But they are not all Palestinians, and they are not even all of Gaza. Even including the armed brigades, there's like, what, 20k, 25k tops? In a territory with over 2 million people, most of whom are children.

I don't see the killing of at least 6,000 Gazans, the vast majority of whom are complete innocents, as being anything close to an effective, let alone a just or reasonable, response to the equally ineffective, unjust and unreasonable mass killing of 1,400 innocent Jews.

Ezadara wrote:
This was decades ago, back in the 70s and early 80s-- the people who made those decisions are, for the most part, gone. As you said, it's Israeli civilians today and everyday Palestinians who now get to pay the price for the shortsightedness of those policymakers.


I would also like to agree with this one. But extend that analogy: the vast, vast majority of Palestinians living in Gaza today were nowhere even close to voting age when Hamas came to political power, and yet now they, along with the Israeli civilians who have already died, are the ones who are going to pay for their parents' and older relatives' shortsightedness.

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