Good luck, I feel that urge once in a while, too. I haven't had any "success" in a very long time myself. ("Success," however, meaning a one-time date with someone who seems compatible on paper, but just doesn't "click" in person.) Anyway, OLD for me is mostly a very frustrating and dispiriting thing, but I hear too many success stories (e.g., eventual marriages) to dismiss it entirely... But all in all, most days my attitude is "Eh, I just sort of suck at the dating game, but there are other things in life, not the end of the world if I end up just being single."

Part of me holds out some hope for the possibility that I'll stumble into a decent relationship eventually (again, not the end of the world if it doesn't happen), but I'm not inclined to picture that starting online. Online dating amounts to half-blind dating, as far as I'm concerned, and seems to foster a certain pressure to force connections that might not really be there. Maybe I'm full of it, but IMO, the best relationships blossom of their own accord, from organic, unplanned connections, where people aren't under so much pressure to perform and put on airs. Otherwise, the whole thing for me has what Seinfeld described as a "job interview for sex" quality.

In any case, good luck.

Um...as bad as this sounds, I'm not even opposed to that. I'll take a hookup over nothing at all.

It's like fast food pizza, right? Even when it's bad, it's still pretty good. At least hits the spot



Thank you, sir

Eh, I'm not so sure in my case. Personally I find there are many cases where it just isn't worth the trouble.

I have some buddies at opposite ends of the sex-drive spectrum: At one end would be the guys who think of sex as the peak human experience, the most important thing a person can do, and/or who genuinely enjoy and feel at home at strip clubs and the like; at the other (less populous) end would be the guys who just sort of shrug, generally finding the whole thing a bit silly and "meh" if not positively tedious, but do participate nonetheless - almost regrettably, as a sort of animal necessity. (Like, when they happen to get aroused, the response is more-or-less "Oh, brother, now I have this dumb thing to take care of...")

I'm closer to the second category than the first. I've read some descriptions of "graysexuality" that seem applicable.

I just came to a conclusion earlier this year that online dating hadn't really ever added any long-term positive effects for me. I've been more chill and centered since I quit that bullshit.

I found that online dating decreased my confidence, but that's just me. I hope you have more luck with your experience. Let us know how it goes.

The way I see it, as long as my expectations are reasonably low, I can't be that disappointed in the end if nothing really works out

The other night at a dinner with some buddies, I learned that my friend's wife has a close friend who considers herself a witch. I happen to know basically nothing about witches (is it "Witches," capitalized?), and I was very curious to ask her for like a 101-level overview, or a rundown on the FAQs ("What is a witch? How does one become a witch? What do witches believe? What difficulties does this pose? What might you say to persuade a skeptic?" etc.). But I couldn't quite think of a non-tacky way to express my curiosity, so I and the rest of the group just sat pleasantly and straight-faced while she would matter-of-factly drop these conversational references to this or that demon or spell or exorcism...

Guess it's off to the Google.

You should always stay away from crazy people!

So not sure if this carries weight across cultures, but my wife has a friend who's a Fortune Master (hear me out, it's not a Yugioh card), which means he basically tells people's fortunes and interprets...stuff. I don't really know the technical side of it, but she met him when she was trying to figure out whether to demolish a massive plaster dragon on the roof of the restaurant she had bought, which is kind of a feng shui issue and somehow related to what he does. (He told her not to, because that would be unlucky. They encased the dragon's head in a ceiling light over one of the toilets ) Anyway, a while ago he (the Fortune Master) told her (my wife) that she's a witch.

In his definition it basically meant that she had a more than usual ability to influence things through her emotions, not that she was able to do magic or learn spells or anything. For instance, he meant that she would be able to make things happen by really wanting them to, whether good or bad. To some extent, I correlated it with willpower, because she's very good at making things happen when she wants to, although that's usually down to hard work. For reference, this is all somewhat related to Chinese feng shui, ba gua, astrology, etc., and I'm not totally sure what it's based on. However, from what I know of the Fortune Master there's probably something in it, because he's quite good at what he does.

EDIT:
Not strictly related to that story, I was once reading a book in a bar in Shanghai (coincidence, the book was The Witch of Portobello) when the owner, a 40ish lady sat down next to me. After a bit of chat she told me that she was a witch (presumably not having seen the book cover, which was in English), but didn't really explain why. I ended up staying with her until 3am and trying all her perfumes

Like actual religions, all that secular spirituality looks ridiculous to me. There is even a chapter entitled Leviathan and other cunts in Patricia MacCormack's book. lol Overdone symbolism is not going to overthrow misogyny or change the world in any other way. It's just being subversive eccentric for your own sake.

I can only imagine what you think of stuff like LaVeyan Satanism lol

^ I don't fancy Santas (from hell).

Speaking of atheists, we make only 1.1% in my country. If that doesn't make me feel like an alienated misanthrope...

A couple of months ago I ended up a 4 years relationship... Still don't feel like dating, but I would rather to just go out and see what happens with 0 expectations. Online dating can be useful in some ways, but face to face interaction reveals if there's real chemistry from the first minute.


Don't you dare to lose your confidence Mikey, you're just to wholesome for online dating... You're the sun papi!! You can't stop shining, beso en el poto!

.

Well, I just created my OLD profile.

Like I said before, expectations are low, but hoping at least something comes of it, even if it's only casual or the occasional hookup. It'll be an exciting break from my normal life of working 60 hours a week and squeezing in some fun every now and then.

Plus? If I'm being honest, I've spent all this time and energy in the gym for years, why not find a nice woman to share the fruits of my labor with? Does that sound bad? I don't know, I feel like that sounds kind of vain.

Haha thanks mate. I already have a girlfriend so I don't have to worry.


Not at all. You're probably feeling good so why not share it.

Honestly my confidence shot up to the moon once I started using Tinder back in 2014. It helps that I'm much better at the written word than speaking (I'm a good talker too and I type basically the exact same way that I talk, but if I have those extra few seconds to think my words over I think it's easier to be witty/charming) but I also just took a shotgun approach and blindly swiped right while I played videogames. Therefore the match was never a gamble and the woman almost never starts the conversation anyway so if I wasn't interested I'd just never say anything and they almost never noticed since they were drowning in matches anyway. Got like five or six dates in three months and one hookup that stopped being sexual the next morning but the girl and I are still friends nearly ten years later. The experiment with online dating stopped after those three months but it's because I'd met somebody on there that is currently my wife.

I don't know if that's encouraging or discouraging to people who are struggling since I know I hit a one in a zillion jackpot meeting a future spouse on the hookup app within months, but that was my only experience with online dating.

Shouldn't Tinder have a "swipe all" option for us guys?

No, because they're ultimately a business who wants your money, how ever way they can s̶c̶a̶m̶ get it out of you.

A swipe all would hamper their business model

Also, thanks for the encouragement BastardHead. Unfortunately, Tinder in 2023 ain't what it was back in 2014. It's gotten objectively worse in every aspect.

I think online dating is a negative thing overall for the mind... you get into a sense where you're just thinking of dating in this constant mode of exertion and looking for more. There's always more swiping, so it's easy to just never make any real decisions about anyone, since you can trade up for someone better any time. So many of the dates I went on from there were just wastes of time, and lots of dates in general will be that way, but with the apps, it's just so much work to eventually lead to nothing.

Plus, like mentioned above, there's this sense that you're being commodified and sold something on the apps - the more we use them, the better those companies do. I don't know all the specifics of how it works, but it's not good for them if we all find people too easily and get off the apps. I just didn't like it.

And I began to feel like using the apps was making me think too much about finding someone, about the pressure to do it, and that paradoxically makes you less interesting to date. I thought it'd be best to just live normally and see what happens in the regular world.

Let's be real though, commodities are what relationships are. The person we're "with" is the ultimate commodity, is it not? Tailored personally to our wants and needs. When they no longer fulfill those or something better comes along we trade in. None of this is specific to online dating.

I used to see my relationships that started out online as lesser than those that started out in the real world but why should one marketplace be better than another?

Nah, there's more to relationships than commodifying people, or shopping around for the item that'll give you the most pleasure (while anxiously competing for the optimal grade in other people's systems of hedonic calculus). If love were really that dreadful, pretty much nobody would seek it out or take part in it...or if they would, it would take some super powerful brain chemicals to induce the requisite irrationality...

But IMO, occasionally in philosophy and elsewhere there are odd/disturbing/paradoxical lines of thought that may be challenging or even impossible to refute, but are perfectly fine (even preferable!) to take with a grain of salt, since that's what psychologically healthy human beings will do anyway. A classic example is "There are no selfless acts." Similarly, a personal favorite: A couple decades ago I was lurking some forum where an edgy college kid (we've all been there) reported with evident satisfaction how he rebutted his own mother's comment that she loved him "unconditionally." ("Well actually, Mom...") I'd put the "relationships = commodities" thing in a similar category.

And in any case, being single isn't so bad. ("Today I drank a beer in the bathroom!")

Being single isn't bad at all, but I am starting to think that it's a tad overrated as well.

Good relationship >>>> single >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ad infinitum > bad relationship

there are far worse things that being single for sure, but there are definitely things about it that really fucking suck as well, if we're keeping it real

Yeah but to me it was just lame to feed into these apps where it's turning into "pay us for the premium service where we'll show you the actual full range of options you have." Fuck that.

I see "Defenestrated" and "Disembodied" responding right after one another all the time and can't tell them apart.

One of the biggest indicators that I won't get along with somebody is if they treat every human interaction like a transaction on some level. Viewing relationships analogously to shopping and partners as purchasable things that you can and will dispose of and upgrade on a whim doesn't make you an Ascended Smarty Pants Nietzsche Boy, it's makes you An Asshole.

I tried to open an Etsy account in order to sell my pottery, I do this as a hobby, and I get insta banned.

Why?

Well, read for yourself:



I never received an email, or any explanation why this has happened. Maybe I read too much Kafka and now Etsy wants to give me a real life experience. The shop was open for maybe an hour. Maybe my pottery is a threat to the world, peace and the universe ... hell knows.

This. Among character traits, this kind of thinking is on the level of not being nice to restaurant staff.

Also, considering interactions a form of transaction has the built-in problem of lacking a common currency. People get different things they value from interactions and even relationships, and surprisingly often even if they are in the very same relationship with each other. For some, it's physical intimacy, for others, a soul mate or the exchange of ideas. And even those relationships can be surprisingly balanced, as long as both sides are happy. My ex wife has a friend with a strange husband. The guy must be more than just a little autistic, with weird interests, behavioral tics, odd takes on things, and so forth, but they seem to be happy together, so there nothing bad to say about them. But you can bet your butt that their "transaction" currency is not the same both ways. They definitely get completely different things out of it. And that, dear people, is why you occasionally meet couples that seem unbalanced or incompatible, and they can still be happy.

Someone considering a relationship a transaction tends to make that person a bit uncomfortable to be around, TBH. It turns the whole idea into a game, and I don't wish to view my personal relationships with anyone, intimate or not, as a game of any sort.

If my memories of high school art class are to be trusted, they probably thought you were selling bongs lol

I feel this paragraph is a philosopher's polite way of saying I don't have enough real world experience . Which wouldn't be far from the truth in a lot of areas of life, but not in relationships. And to be fair, there are very few I've had that I'd rather I hadn't. So I do agree there's more to relationships and it's hard to say exactly what that is.

In any case, I definitely didn't mean the 'relationships as commodities' comment in a bad or dismissive way, so I'm a bit surprised people have taken it that way. Is it really that radical and obscene to say that when we choose to enter a relationship we're comparing the 'me' who is single with the 'me' + the woman/man we're considering entering a relationship with, and choosing the one we prefer weighing up the pros and cons? Like we all do when we shop on ebay for a pair of new shoes, or ditch our old worn out ones for a new pair?

I'm not doubting that you have more relationship experience than me (though that's a low bar to clear!) - I just think the point about self-interested, marketplace-style calculation is overstated.

For one thing, I would say that being in love can sort of obscure those calculations, or even at some point inspire a person to set them aside, out of principle. Being madly in love can obliterate the coolly self-interested mindset (hence, "I can't live without this person"). And being part of a long-term commitment involving goals (e.g. family) and a shared history can reflect a choice not to operate from the standpoint of optimal consumer experience.

The calculations and criteria, the pros and cons, the "checklists," the "terms and conditions" - these are obviously part of the process, though, I'd agree; you can't love or profess commitment to simply anyone. But that, I think, just amounts to saying that people are (in part) rational decision-makers. (What the remainder would amount to is harder to say, and I am not sufficiently awake/caffeinated to begin to attempt...)

Being in love definitely obliterates those calculations. We cease to identify with what we were when we were single and now identify with ourselves as one with our partner - hence, the "I can't live.without them". That's true of any beloved object that enters into our lives.

But isn't it also true that the one we can't live without can all of a sudden and without warning become someone we can't possibly live with? And who we're perfectly willing to trade in to be single or for someone better? Ask most people who've been in love and I'd bet they've had that experience.

We're constantly re- calculating the relationship even if we may not be aware of it, otherwise we wouldn't be able to say we can't live without someone or must live with them.

One of the side-effects of dating apps seems, to me as a non-user, to be an idea of criteria. Sure, the apps work on the principle of criteria as a starting point, but they also drive people into creating "checklists" of a kind for themselves. People have always had them, including essentials, nice-to-haves, and deal breakers, but using the apps make them more formulaic. And as they are used, the focus is on that list of criteria, and the possibilities are not on par with a casual meeting. Every action is filled with expectation, and everything and everybody is compared to the ideal created in the process.

Or at least that's what it looks like to me. I have no experience of that myself.

For some folks, it does turn people into something. Not necessarily into commodities, but into something that can be expressed in numbers and definite terms. Height, weight, gym routines, bra size, monetary worth, car driven, BMI, location and quality of the home, specific interests, etc.. In the old fashioned way of meeting people in real life, those things exist, and do affect the outcomes from the background, but people are social beings, and tend to allow more imperfection in the people they meet face to face. Real life also provides an opportunity to make an impression with things and characteristics such lists could never contain. The impersonal app makes it possible to just apply the template on each person seen on the screen, and simply discard the ones that do not fit the more or less rigid lists of things. People have gotten probably hundreds of billions of contacts, most of them a few seconds in duration, and either swiped them off the screen or felt bad if the other person has not liked them as well. Which is mostly OK, and having the opportunity has certainly been a good thing for many. But they've also missed millions or billions of opportunities to meet others that would have been close to perfect for them, given a real chance at getting to know the person now swiping to the wrong direction.

I'm definitely not judging anyone using the apps. But it does influence our decision making. Just like social media in general: someone said that a lot of the stress felt by the younger generations stem from the fact that they yearn to have the same kind of life as the people they follow on social media, but fail to understand that most of those people they idolize have spent days or weeks of time and a lot of money to create those pics or seconds of video that make their lives seem perfect and desirable. And so they look at their own normal lives, and think they've failed in some sense as they do their own laundry, and dream of having that wonderful daiquiri on that white beach next to the house on the stilts on the Maldives, or that perfectly crumbly croissant in that cafe with the purple flowers on the bank of Seine when the sun sets behind the houses on the hill. No one should compare their life with the unreal worlds and even less realistic lives that the few successful professionals manage to fake, but here we are.

I'll go and yeall at a cloud now... hmmm... ...where did I put my belt with the onion...?

^ No I'd say you're exactly on the money with all of that. Technology has a lot of great uses, but plenty of silly or negative effects as well... the point you make about the dating apps conditioning you to see people as just lists of qualities is definitely what I was also getting at earlier.

I have never used a single dating app. I am not against them, in fact I have no real stock in them either way. I suppose there are pros and cons depending on ones personality and comfort with social interaction.

I never used them because, for me, it would have been a waste of time. I have always been physically unattractive and with women so much of the attraction appears to be superficial. So even if a woman on an app was somehow interested in me, was genuinely not bothered by my usual anti-social behavior or strict dedication to my career, a meeting would never go well. She would not accept my height, monolithic shoulders or the fact that my personality is akin to a wet cardboard box. There are people who have known me for decades and have still never gotten 100 words out of me. I hate the sound of my voice so even in situations where socializing is the key, I struggle saying anything more than hello.

There are no pros, at least for most males. It's filled with thousands of women who complain endlessly about guys only wanting one thing (sex), and those same women then proceed to swipe "like" only on those guys. That's not intended to be misogynistic either, just that most of the "good" women sure as hell aren't on Tinder.

OK well now we are drifting into just plain misogyny.

The FEMALES never want to go out with NICE GUYS like me!

This quickly devolved from me venting about my frustration with being single into something I never intended.

sigh

I hate the internet sometimes

as well as some of the people that use it...

lmao

I just learned that Riot was directly responsible for the creation of rap metal.